London’s burning


I’m all for violent direct action; but I draw the line when those damn students made the future King of England ejaculate out of his eye. That’s too far.

London is burning again. The protesters have spoken. I genuinely hope this is a sign of things to come. I hope the Unions get a backbone too. The middle classes certainly wont. They need to watch Coronation Street’s live episode and complain about students. I am a strong supporter of violent direct action, when Government’s quite clearly piss on the very people who elected them. It gets the message across. Always has. Shock Capitalism has been tried on Countries in the past, with shocking consequences. We should not allow it to happen here, we don’t want it here. We will not be peaceful about it either.

So the Tuition Fee debate lasted five hours. The biggest decision on higher education in decades, was decided in less time than it takes to drive from Manchester to Devon. Nick Clegg and Vince Cable didn’t stay for the debate.

The Government won by 323 votes to 302. Their majority of 86, swiftly cut to 21. A number of Lib Dems showed the had to courage to vote against the rise, and surprisingly, a few Tories voted against it too.

Still, here is the list of Lib Dem MPs who voted for the rise in tuition fees, despite pledging to vote against any such proposal.

Let’s make sure this is the last Parliament they ever sit through.

Danny Alexander (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey)
Norman Baker (Lewes)
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed)
Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley)
Tom Brake (Carshalton & Wallington)
Jeremy Browne (Taunton Deane)
Malcolm Bruce (Gordon)
Paul Burstow (Sutton & Cheam)
Vince Cable (Twickenham)
Alistair Carmichael (Orkney & Shetland)
Nick Clegg (Sheffield Hallam)
Edward Davey (Kingston & Surbiton)
Lynne Featherstone (Hornsey & Wood Green)
Don Foster (Bath)
Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay)
Duncan Hames (Chippenham)
Nick Harvey (Devon North)
David Heath (Somerton & Frome)
John Hemming (Birmingham Yardley)
Norman Lamb (Norfolk North)
David Laws (Yeovil)
Michael Moore (Berwickshire, Roxburgh & Selkirk)
Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove)
Jo Swinson (Dunbartonshire East)
Sarah Teather (Brent Central)
David Ward (Bradford East)
Steve Webb (Thornbury and Yate).

If any of these are your MP, and you voted partly due to their stance on tuition fees; email them. Let them know that they are a disgrace. Let them know that they have absolutely forfeited their right to be known as Progressives. Let them know that they are Tories.

Advertisements

73 Responses to London’s burning

  1. Black Flag says:

    Futile,

    Though you don’t know it yet, you were saved by the vote.

  2. How?
    Firstly, the vote doesn’t affect me because i graduate the year it all comes into being.
    But i’ll leave with about a £20,000 debt.
    The group leaving in 2016, will leave with around about a £40,000 debt. A debt they pay, for much less because the education budget was slashed.
    How are they “saved” by paying far more, for far less?

  3. Black Flag says:

    Futile,

    With government increasing your grants, the Universities will increase their fees.

    The Universities price solely exists on your ability to pay.

    The more able you are to pay, the higher their fees. They are not selling a good – they are selling a service – a service not dependent on any significant inventory – a service solely based on some bizarre idea you need a degree to get a job.

    Thus, you want to advocate for LESS government money – which will dramatically change the game in your favor.

    But this is counter-intuitive, so you will not see this.

  4. Black Order says:

    BF – “Thus, you want to advocate for LESS government money – which will dramatically change the game in your favor.”

    BO – Like I said a few days ago, take away government subsidies and regulations, and watch them compete with each other for students by offering a quality education for less, thus lowering the price of tuition.

    BF – “The Universities price solely exists on your ability to pay.”

    Futile,

    Flag is right. Listen to him/it(he’s an alien designed AI program remember. lol)

    Without government money, they have a choice of… cater to the costumer’s need or perish. And what the costumer needs is an affordable education.

    You say “Drop”, and they say “How low?”.

    Real simple.

  5. The problem is, that isn’t what happened when certain other industries were privatised. The gas companies didn’t improve or offer a better deal. To the point where government had to offer winter fuel allowances to OAPs because it became far too expensive for old people to afford to keep warm/alive in the winter. The rail companies certainly didn’t. I understand the free market logic, I just am just entirely sceptical of it.

    We don’t want a market in education.

    Either way, that’s irrelevant, and I don’t want another blog of mine turning into a libertarian conversation. It’s irrelevant because it isn’t what this vote achieved.

  6. Charles says:

    Black Order and Black Flag act like they are the same person posting and agreeing with himself. Its funny as hell and its like you are some reading some debates on the China Daily forums. He is just trying to force his views on you, don’t let him bully you. He does not know what he is talking about, hes position is the same in economics, as climate change denial is in climate science.

  7. Black Flag says:

    Futile,

    Your examples of the Gas and Rail are not analogous.

    They both required a continuation of government subsidy. That makes the government their customer, not the People. You can’t then argue “well see it didn’t benefit the customer, the People” because you’re wrong in attributing those two things to represent the same thing.

    Tuition grants are a similar thing – the University’s customer is the government, not you. They depend on the government’s ability to pay, not yours. Thus, their focus is on government goals, not yours.

    Black Order is not Black Flag – no more than Charles is the evil doppelganger of Futile.

  8. Black Flag says:

    Charles,

    I suppose England buried in snow is an example of your AGW climate change, right?

  9. Black Order says:

    Charles – “Black Order and Black Flag act like they are the same person posting and agreeing with himself.”

    Black Order – No, Black Flag and I aren’t the same person.

    Flag is a blogosphere buddy from whom I have learned a few things. You might say that I am one of his students, hence why our responses are sometimes similar.

    Charles – “He is just trying to force his views on you, don’t let him bully you. He does not know what he is talking about, hes position is the same in economics, as climate change denial is in climate science.”

    Black Order – No one is trying to bully or force anything on anyone, but rather simply share/exchange knowledge.

    You should listen to Flag as he is an infinitely intelligent and knowledgeable man. This is why I joke that he’s really an alien designed AI program.

    I gave up on trying to argue with him, as you will eventually do.

    Of coure, You can never really lose a debate because you will always learn something from it, which is actually a gain.

  10. Black Order says:

    Futile,

    I’m still learning when it comes to the British system, but what I DO know is that the free market works because it is self balancing.

    It’s fair and consistent with no holes, so to speak.

  11. Charles says:

    Consider the following statements…

    “Free market works because it is self balancing”

    A quote from the Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph E. Stiglitz, says:
    “Adam Smith, the father of modern economics, is often cited as arguing for the “invisible hand” and free markets: firms, in the pursuit of profits, are led, as if by an invisible hand, to do what is best for the world. But unlike his followers, Adam Smith was aware of some of the limitations of free markets, and research since then has further clarified why free markets, by themselves, often do not lead to what is best. As I put it in my new book, Making Globalization Work, the reason that the invisible hand often seems invisible is that it is often not there.

    Whenever there are “externalities”—where the actions of an individual have impacts on others for which they do not pay, or for which they are not compensated—markets will not work well. Some of the important instances have long understood environmental externalities. Markets, by themselves, produce too much pollution. Markets, by themselves, also produce too little basic research. (The government was responsible for financing most of the important scientific breakthroughs, including the internet and the first telegraph line, and many bio-tech advances.)

    But recent research has shown that these externalities are pervasive, whenever there is imperfect information or imperfect risk markets—that is always.

    Government plays an important role in banking and securities regulation, and a host of other areas: some regulation is required to make markets work. Government is needed, almost all would agree, at a minimum to enforce contracts and property rights.

    The real debate today is about finding the right balance between the market and government (and the third “sector”—non-governmental non-profit organizations.) Both are needed. They can each complement each other. This balance differs from time to time and place to place.”

    A good quote from Noam Chomsky,
    “Throughout history, Adam Smith observed, we find the workings of “the vile maxim of the masters of mankind”: “All for ourselves, and nothing for other People.” He had few illusions about the consequences. The invisible hand, he wrote, destroys the possibility of a decent human existence “unless government takes pains to prevent” this outcome, as must be assured in “every improved and civilized society.” It destroys community, the environment, and human values generally—and even the masters themselves, which is why the business classes have regularly called for state intervention to protect them from market forces. (…)”

    wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_hand

    If externalities are pervasive and ignored by the market this can lead to a very interesting outcome for the free market system. Climate change is one of these externalities.

    Lets take climate change and trade for a simple argument. I will hopefully open the possibility to you that with only one externality now considered, trade can make everyone worse off.

    Image there are three people orange, pink and blue. They live in a small town with an air pollution problem. They also each have a garage full of gadgts they currently don’t use.

    Now we are going to see same trades,

    1) Orange sells a lawnmower to pink.

    they both get £100 of value from this trade, orange from selling his lawnmower and pink from getting to use this lawnmower.

    The only problem is when pink uses this lawnmower air pollution gets worse.

    The air pollution has health impacts for everyone in the town, to the tune of £80 per person. Both orange and pink still make £20 of value but blue loses £80 of value. Blue is what ecomonist call an externality and they don’t care about blue.

    We how see another trade,

    2) Pink sells a snowblower to blue.

    They get both £100 from that trade, but air pollution gets worse. £80 of additional health impacts for everyone.

    We complete the circle,

    3) Blue sells a leafblower to orange.

    They both get £100 value from the trade but air pollution gets still worse for everyone, with everyone getting an additional £80 of health impacts.

    If you take these trades together and add up what each person gets, orange, pink and blue. You will see that the sum of all these trades is -£40 for everyone.

    Each person’s trades are individually rational but all the trades together hurt everyone! This is a good reason for there to be a government, government would be need to stop trading if it is hurting everyone.

    Sourse http://www.standupeconomist.com by Yoram Bauman who has a Ph.D. in economics.

  12. Ahmad Jomaa says:

    you know, Tories are doing what Tories do. we cant really hold it against them since we (the uk) voted them in and they are doing what their party thinks is right. my problem is the epic fail of democratic representation (by the freaking LibDems who acted like they where the vanguards of democracy during election campaign)
    someone tells a country they are going to do X
    and when the people give them the power they do Y
    Im think that falls under tyranny because if you voted libdem then you may as well have voted monster-raving-loony-party what a wasted vote.
    that in my opinion should be criminal. If I hire someone to fix my engine and they slash my tyres instead id want to kick/fire/shoot their ass. Turns out however clean politicians may seem they all have fork tongs.

  13. Agreed.
    The Tories are the only party we can trust to stick to their ideology. We got what we elected.
    Agreed on the Lib Dems too. The saving grace is, they are absolutely fucked come the next election.

  14. RGB says:

    “I’m all for violent direct action; but I draw the line when those damn students made the future King of England ejaculate out of his eye”

    Draw the line on Royalty? I draw the line when Charlie Gilomore washes down happy pills with alcohol, swings from the cenotaph and then has the nerve to blame the police for his actions. Disrespecting a symbol of the freedom that he enjoys today is so ironic.

    Some students stated that he was more interested in publicising himself. His actions typify why I would prefer in the first instance to direct additional taxes to improve the state education system in primary, middle and secondary schools.

    You referred to Brown and the bigot incident, it only takes one small incident to destroy a campaign. Gilmore has truly succeeded here.

    He was also caught on video shouting ‘forward, break the lines… unto death.’ How pathetic. Next minute he is photographed close to the royal car at the time of the incident – no police kettling here to blame.

    Boy seaman John Cornwell VC, aged 16, (youngest VC winner) was one of many brave men and women who made the ultimate sacrifice for this country. He was initially buried in a paupers grave until a public out cry afforded him a full military burial. At only 16 years old he was a man unlike Gilmore who is still wet behind the ears.

    Some creative photos on your web site.

  15. “Draw the line on Royalty?”
    – I actually don’t draw the line at royalty. I was being sarcastic.

    I agree with you on Gilmore. I don’t condone idiots being idiots for the sake of being idiots. I do absolutely condone acts like breaking into Milbank. I hope they do it again. I hope this is just the start.

    Gilmore destroyed no campaign. Firstly, you appear to be suggesting that students desire the support of a largely vacant middle class? We don’t. I really don’t care if a hypocritical middle class supports us or not. If we are to go by your assessment that 1 student out of 500,000 actually represents 100% of students, that firstly means that A) I don’t want the support of people who are so easily manipulated by what the media show them, and B) It would mean that given the reports of abuse in Afghanistan by British and U.S soldiers; all British and U.S soldiers are therefore abusers who should be rotting in prison. We all know that’s not how it works.

    Secondly, I’d suggest this is just the start. When cuts start to bite, a few kids throwing paint at a car is going to be long forgotten. It’s going to get a lot worse.

    Comparing Armed forces to protesters is meaningless. They aren’t the same, yet they perform a social requirement. We need protesters, and over the years, we have needed violent protesters.

  16. RGB says:

    What is your definition of the middle class, apart from being hypocrites?

    PS. I consider myself working class.

  17. My definition of the middle class would be a white collared family with a mortgage, 2.4 children, who define themselves by what they own. The highlight of their week is X Factor. They show outrage at the apparent behaviour of certain celebrities as portrayed in the media, without questioning the underlying intentions of the media. They will repeat the phrase “labour’s debt” because they have heard it repeated in the media and down the pub, and think they sound wise and thoughtful, but not actually knowing what it is they are talking about. They will convey disgust at a police van getting vandalised by students, but will happily continue to shop in Primark, a shop famed for its use of awful exploitation and abuse. They will wear “Make poverty history” armbands when it’s fashionable to do so, but will not know the scale of the problem, the underlying issues that cause poverty, and how actually, the consumerist bubble they obsess over, is simply perpetuating the poverty problems.
    They will complain about immigration, and claim that Britain is “ours”, voting for weakly tied bandages on the system, without being able to think about what it is that causes mass immigration and how it relates to the history of Nation States, colonialism, and Global inequality. In short, they are apathetic to politics, and only ever comment on the very surface issues.

  18. I definitely consider Prince Charles as one who did his best considering his situation.I respect his engagement.
    Confusing him with certain politicians is probably fulfilling a certain cliche, some might even need to hide their own aspiration for power,not reflecting the duty aspect of it.Look further than some “easy labels”!.

  19. Middle class is a “lick upwards, kick down, and look away!” mindset expecting to “climb up” through “well behaving” good child mannierism , unreflecting the own hypocrite participation to the worth systems.

    These days is insisting that everything remains stable to them in a destructured world they have administrated to other.

  20. Look at history….it is always the middle class who globally under whatever regime, which administrates atrocity.

  21. RGB says:

    “Gilmore destroyed no campaign.”

    I should have said ‘damaged’ – impassioned, I poorly chose the wrong word.

    “If we are to go by your assessment that 1 student out of 500,000 actually represents 100% of students”

    Not how I think but one transgression does no favours and AFAIK the education system is floored from early learning, needs a radical re-think and should be better funded as a first priority.

    We do not buy the newspapers and barely watch the news. I caught the image of Gilmore on Yahoos headline news when I dived into my junk mail folder. A professional photographer I value images, pictures paint a thousand words (they sometimes distort the truth), the manipulative media were not blameworthy on this occasion.

    “The highlight of their week is X Factor.”

    Fortunately my wife doesn’t watch X factor, soaps, or other similar drivel.

    No system to date has been perfect nor will it be because homo sapiens are primitive by nature. There would still be be thieves, wife beaters and murderers if an Anarcho-Syndicalism system was in place and then intervention would likely follow.

    Education:

    I agree with some of Ken Robinson’s thoughts. It would however take extra funding to improve education in order to meet individual needs.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wbtY Some amusing jokes after he warms up.

    With so many degrees being taken, employers may end up demandin an MA where a degree sufficed or a PHD where a MA was sufficient.

    A recent study revealed that more students were studying photography in the UK than jobs available across the whole of Europe. I have never earned a great deal of money from photography (my earnings have been continually absorbed by expensive equipment). Without any help from the Gov and working from home I managed to employ three students (separate times), two had degrees in photography and joined me straight from Uni. I judged them by their personality and portfolios not by a piece of paper.

    Their portfolios were no more creative than the person who hadn’t attended Uni. One of the University students stated they learnt more about photography during the first two weeks of employment than during their time spent at Uni – an exaggeration no doubt. The other student complained that the lecturer was often absent, not up to snuff on digital and many times they were packed off to fend for themselves.

    This showed as their knowledge of the basics was genuinely shockingly poor. Photography demands an understanding of the mechanics, even more so with quality digital workflows and the black art of digital colour management, especially CMYK.

    I value the arts as much as core subjects but question the quality of some universities (many formerly polys) and whether uni is really necessary for certain subjects. I know a lighting director who started off as a tea boy at the BBC and yet won several BAFTAS – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Dunn_(cinematographer)

    George his father, a friend, was a wonderful man who worked in the film industry. Nowadays Andrew would need a degree to get in, absurd. We need to get back to employers taking on apprentices and not relying on pieces of paper for jobs that didn’t demanded them in the past.

    Violence

    I abhor ‘all’ violence as a means to an end. The following award winning (cinema-photography) documentary featuring by Satish Kumar, an earth pilgrim interests me.

    My wife’s contribution to the pot from her teacher’s salary is costly. I presume your lecturers also pay high taxes? No doubt women will still be paying taxes on tampons (albeit at a reduced rate) for years to come!

    The last government were poor at managing the economy and the banks greedy. Consumerism – a pre occupation of society with the acquisition of goods – is also to blame. Millions of people who have not been disciplined with money, for no good reason, haven’t they played their part?

  22. RGB says:

    A recent study revealed that more students were studying photography in the UK than jobs available across the whole of Europe

    Duh -I meant to say than photographic jobs available across the whole of Europe.

  23. RGB says:

    If anyone is interested select the clip, Ken Robinson – Do schools kill creativity?

  24. RGB…who tells you that freedom is not bearable to humans and his nature is bound to destruction,greed and non cooperation ? Middle class comfort rules?
    That sounds like the old neoplatonist mistrust warmed up by a cynical neoliberalism who avoid what Smith had to say beside his “greed” statement.
    We all project on humanity our own unconscious, and I must say that after years helping humans to make a difference between neurotic learned patterns and their own self, I would confirm what neurology starts to affirm in some researches, that the most humans beside a minority knows very well that cooperation is good for themselves.
    It is high time to mature up out of some nightmare of patronising “elites” thinking&acting pretending “for our best”. All those “authority’s”, these father/god projections have failed, and can even be considered as abusive of the trust humans put into them.I prefer to trust the potential of my next, because I deeply know myself.

  25. And YES, school tend to kill creativity…beside few other aspects …like body awareness, social cooperation, sensorial intuition, out door perception, self determination, critical thinking…and more.

  26. RGB says:

    antiphonsgarden

    “RGB…who tells you that freedom is not bearable to humans and his nature is bound to destruction,greed and non cooperation ?”

    Religious indoctrination, true rebels, renegades, free spirited people, confused dictators, selfish behaviour without cause (includes death of innocent party by various means) and last but not least, a history of conflict through wars.

    If you have the answer to rid the world of religion as it is practiced today, the biggest obstacle as I see it, then you are a genius.

    One very small example of greed when trust and non cooperation fails – during WWII, after bombing raids, some people who were bombed out of their homes stole from neighbours out of need, however organised gangs of criminals stole from bombed out houses purely for greed.

    Excessive alcoholism accounts for a great deal of destruction (including death) and misery. It brings out the true nature of people – take your pick, violent (e.g.serious assaults), inconsiderate (e.g.death of innocent party by drink driving) or just happy. Efforts to ban alcohol haven’t worked.

    Any new system of governing ‘the subjects’ will still have to deal with human weaknesses that ‘will’ still exist.

    Middle class comfort rules?
    Adam Smith wrote about the self interests of the butcher, the baker and the candlestick maker as part of the motor-powering capitalisation process. However he was also aware these professions were a more reliable way to get to your produce – two parties only interested in themselves wont result in a bargain.

    This ‘middle class comfort rules’ label is a generalised, neurotic, form of stereotyping. Anti-Capitalists purchase food from middle class comfort miscreants, seek medical advice and will call the police, ambulance-men or fireman if the need arises.

    If the state was abolished ‘everyone’ of its functions will have to be reproduced to ensure the safe running of society – it would require world-wide domination. In an effort to extend society to meet ethic values the rulers of the new system would have to dominate the people more comprehensively. True rebels, renegades and free spirited people would no more accept a different society than the one we have today.

    Those labelling others as ‘middle class comfort’ need to be whiter than white. At present some anarchists, including those middle class comfort versions, will be hypocrites about their green credentials through wasting water (a precious shared resource) and energy.

    They will complain about the loss of the orang-utans habitat but blindly purchase food containing palm oil that is sourced from the very area of complaint. Groan about the heavy handed tactics of the state of Israel and yet purchase products from ‘Israel (I’m not not anti jew), etc, etc, etc.

    Contribute towards global warming by flying on holiday – vapour trials are probably one the worst type of pollutants as they trap outgoing longwave radiation and needlessly drive their car half a mile to school, or the shops, on a regular basis just for the fun of adding to pollution levels.

  27. It does not need a genius, to not confuse the neuroses with the potential.I guess in your view, a lifetime as therapist is wasted on “the human nature” being what she is.
    Well,I guess having a mother who fought in the Resistance, gives me another impression about the human nature at war.We had at the family events people from different country’s and war experiences at the table, and…they had learn to overcome their fears to talk with generosity, intelligence and hope for a world without war for the next generation, with each other.
    Observing the middle class, I know only one thing…that the most are ready to do EVERYTHING(including following cynical concepts about the human potential or “everything is nice” mantras) to comfort their petty privileges.
    They will always pretend their own necessity as “go betweens” administrating the circus.
    Who would we be without the middle class?
    One step nearer to a real democracy!

  28. RGB says:

    antiphonsgarden

    “It does not need a genius, to not confuse the neuroses with the potential.”

    It needs more than a theorist to accomplish the potential, if anything religious bigotry has risen in recent years.

    “I guess in your view, a lifetime as therapist is wasted on “the human nature” being what she is.”

    Not a waste of time in the slightest it’s very important to make people question societies values.

    I hold up my hands up to my views being partially clouded by first hand experiences in my previous profession. Fifteen years tending to the severely injured, dying and the dead – graphic carnage often caused through the unequivocal selfish behaviour of others.

    
”Well,I guess having a mother who fought in the Resistance, gives me another impression about the human nature at war.We had at the family events people from different country’s and war experiences at the table, and…they had learn to overcome their fears to talk with generosity, intelligence and hope for a world without war for the next generation, with each other.

    WWII was not that old when I was born. One of my uncles had his brains blown out on French soil, the other was hit by shrapnel from a mortar shell in Burma. I have talked to many war veterans who I am very proud of.

    All of the vetrans that I met who fought and those who experienced the war (many civilians were in the front line too) hoped that the world would be free of conflict after their war. However I have lost count of how many wars have been fought since WWI, the war that was supposed to end all wars. That is not to say there is no hope. Christians of course are brain washed into believing that God will one day come down to Earth to mop up the mess!

    “Observing the middle class, I know only one thing…that the most are ready to do EVERYTHING(including following cynical concepts about the human potential or “everything is nice” mantras) to comfort their petty privileges.
They will always pretend their own necessity as “go betweens” administrating the circus.”
”Who would we be without the middle class?”
”One step nearer to a real democracy!”

    Those people who Judge other people blindly by using general assertions that only fit their ideal are akin to stereotyping someone because of the colour of their skin or dress code. I judge the person wearing the skin and not the colour of the skin itself.

  29. Considering that finger pointing is one of the favourite attitude of many of the short thinking self satisfied self deluding middle class, I don’t feel inclined to put my silk gloves on to finger point back.My concept of respect is one going both way.I am more than bored of pseudo “polite” mannerism covering the daily silent violence orchestrated by a too silent class who considers herself as the majority, avoiding to see her own “silent” destructuration.I respect humans, not abusive class systems.

    Lots of straight talk is a must to prevent the worse.

  30. RGB says:

    “I respect humans, not abusive class systems.”

    I consider respecting ‘all’ other species above the classes a priority as they are at the mercy of us and have suffered from our dominance for far too long. I would suggest cruelty to domestic animals is one of the lowest acts a human being can make as domestic animals place their trust in us.

    Inadvertently or selfishly affecting others is not limited to the middle class, nor always the fault of the system we currently inherit.

    I prefer to sit under the oak tree amongst minimalist green pastures to think more clearly about our impact on the planet. I find the riotous colours of the wildlife meadow too mesmerising.

  31. RGB says:

    Antiphonsgarden

    “Considering that finger pointing is one of the favourite attitude of many of the short thinking self satisfied self deluding middle class, I don’t feel inclined to put my silk gloves on to finger point back.”

    Aren’t people with the biggest self delusional attitude individuals who think they are not self deluded?

    Other people pigeon hole people into classes through superficial identification alone.

    Cognitive thinking depends on how the brain functions and plays a major part in the differences between individuals. Maybe we should all be injected to an IQ of zero or at the other end of the scale 150?

    One of the problems with equality in the western world is that we over-value certain professions and worship pieces of paper (degrees), obscenely rewarding them without question.

    I value ‘all’ people, without refuse collectors disease spreads.

    For those anarchists fixated on the banks (yes they screwed up bit time) there are people who earn ridiculous wages for doing very little – collectively they drain money from society.

    The Ex-Chair of Norther Rock weekly salary (still too much) was 7% of Wayne Rooneys wage. http://thebung.wordpress.com/2010/11/27/wayne-rooney-manchester-united-wages-in-pictures/ I don’t recall any anarchists complaining or demonstrating about the greed of top-flight professional footballers or their agents?

    Two people stranded on a desert island with practical skills would be preferential to sharing an island with a philosopher staring at the ocean.

  32. I am able to reflect philosophically and to repair a chair, but maybe because I don’t divide the pushing neoliberalism of bank managers from the one of sport managers, nor from the one of the university factory.
    Not everybody who can call a donkey a donkey is self deluded, but maybe the one who relative everything might be.Who cares about IQ, a very biased uneffective mesure of intelligence.I find selfirony a better indicator.
    A robin looks from his branch inside,a new friend !

  33. RGB says:

    antiphonsgarden

    My comment is about wealth (comfort), in relation to salaries, when many working class and poor people struggle to make ends meet. Football spectators have remarked that it’s now very costly to purchase season tickets and merchandise, especially since footballers salaries have rocketed.

    How much money does someone need to be content? I accept that wealth doesn’t guarantee happiness. Countless numbers of people struggle (homes repossessed through redundancy through no fault of their own) while capitalists are dripping in gold.

    I am fully aware that IQ is only one measure and limited, it wasn’t meant literally and meant tongue in cheek!

  34. I consider basic income guarantee as the logical base of direct participative democracy.

    Everybody knows how “the service” went down and more expensive in the “service” society .Considering that not only sports events, but sending a parcel to a friend ,culture participation, travelling by train(mobility) or using communication media starts to be something, only the middle class can afford spontaneously, that ecology “improvement”, healthy food, enough warmth or life space is already mostly bound to a certain wealth, you might understand what I mean by middle class privileges.If the middle class would not be so social avoiding and would have flattered herself as those “administrating seriously” our all social deconstruction and job delocalisation, she would have noticed that what she starts to experience, is already the experience of many since long.Welcome to the club.High time to realise that we all as specie have a COMMON disadvantage to go on with this divisions.Even the disconnected wealth concept of some is ridicule considering the real needs we are share in common and can only be handle in common. Class division is destructive to the whole specie.

  35. cuthulan says:

    @Black Order/Flag
    SAYS
    “I’m still learning when it comes to the British system, but what I DO know is that the free market works because it is self balancing.
    It’s fair and consistent with no holes, so to speak.”

    ABSOLUTELY WRONG!!!
    Your Ayn Rand philosophy has been tried and it FAILED SPECTACULARLY!!
    Adam Smith was a libertarian who did NOT believe in government.He wanted to create a system of meritocracy. Unfortunately it created a new ROBBER CLASS , the industrial barons and the NEW RICH! Please read “Capital” by Karl Marx for an indepth explaination of why this happened.
    LIBERTARIAN SOCIALISM is a much better and PROVEN solution. It has worked and IS WORKING TODAY!
    If your resourses are put on the “free market” they will be bought and sold and used by the highest bidder. If YOU want accesss you’ll have to pay.
    FREE MARKET LIBERTARIANISM WILL JUST TURN THE WORLD INTO DISNEYLAND!!
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2010/07/30/libertarian-socialists-the-original-and-real-libertarians/

    @RGB
    If you hate Abrahamic monotheism in ALL its forms, Judaic, Christian and Islam. Its just original fascism.
    You might find these posts interesting.
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2009/09/02/the-invention-of-judaism/
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2009/09/02/the-invention-of-christianity/
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2009/09/02/the-invention-of-islam/

    FUTILEDEMOCRACY I like your blog , I’ll try and keep stopping by.
    RESPECT TO THE STUDENTS!!

  36. Black Flag says:

    cuthulan

    Your Ayn Rand philosophy has been tried and it FAILED SPECTACULARLY!!

    My name is not Ayn Rand, so applying her philosophy to me is a deep fallacy

    Adam Smith was a libertarian who did NOT believe in government.

    Correct. He found that centralized violence destroys reason.

    He wanted to create a system of meritocracy.

    Correct. Those that merit the goods by working get the goods.

    Unfortunately it created a new ROBBER CLASS , the industrial barons and the NEW RICH!

    This is not correct.

    Government – by edict – forced itself into the marketplace and by its choice of violence destroyed merit.

    It pushed wealth and goods to those that were favored by government and away from those who earned.

    Please read “Capital” by Karl Marx for an indepth explaination of why this happened.

    Marx premise has long been refuted, thus, his concepts based on that refuted premises are irrational.

    LIBERTARIAN SOCIALISM is a much better and PROVEN solution. It has worked and IS WORKING TODAY!

    It truly depends on your definition of “working”.

    If you define it as “I get goods without earning them!”, then -if you are the beneficiary – I would believe it works …. for you.

    However, if you are the one earning, and losing your goods for no return, it probably does not work.

    A society that is based on legitimized theft will collapse.

    If your resourses are put on the “free market” they will be bought and sold and used by the highest bidder.

    Correct. This is the mechanism of free men – those that pay, get. Thus, the resources are delivered to those that pay the most wealth for them – thus, the resources go to those that value that resource the most.

    Thus all resources are delivered and traded for the greatest wealth – which will, with no exceptions, increase the wealth of society.

    If YOU want accesss you’ll have to pay.
    FREE MARKET LIBERTARIANISM WILL JUST TURN THE WORLD INTO DISNEYLAND!!

    Or we can follow your way, and turn the world into the Killing Fields.

  37. If I remember well, the highest what one might pay in France per year in public university’s is around 600 Euro?(what is already too much,and quiet recent!as it was free before!).In The UK, the wounded point starts about the rising from 3000 to 9000 pound?
    So, let me suggest you that something went wrong LONG AGO ALREADY for the truly poor students, and what we see now, is the middle class who starts to realise, that they don’t get better treatments from a neoliberalism they have helped to administrate to the poor YEARS AGO!!!
    I truly have mixed feelings about this demonstrations.My old elan would be solidarity, but my question remains : do they TRULY want a more equal society, or do they simply want the preservation of the privileges of their “go between” class? If it s only the last, to be honest, I give a bird shit of a revolt who is far too superficial and does not ask the real deep questions of what social justice would truly mean.

  38. cuthulan says:

    @BLACK FLAG
    “Unfortunately it created a new ROBBER CLASS , the industrial barons and the NEW RICH!”

    This is not correct.
    Government – by edict – forced itself into the marketplace and by its choice of violence destroyed merit.
    It pushed wealth and goods to those that were favored by government and away from those who earned.
    SORRY THIS IS RUBBISH. 1600 THE EAST INDIA COMPANY FORMED THERE WHERE NO TAXES OR “GOVERNMENT” THAT WE WOULD REGOGNISE.THE RULING CLASS GAINED WEALTH BY LAND AND SERVICES.
    IT CREATED THE NEW RICH ROBBER BARONS AND SUBJECTED THE MASSES TO SLAVERY

    Please read “Capital” by Karl Marx for an indepth explaination of why this happened.

    Marx premise has long been refuted, thus, his concepts based on that refuted premises are irrational.

    CAPITAL IS AN CRITIQUE OF CAPITAILSM. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WORKINGS OF SOCIALISM. THAT WAS THE “COMMUNIST MANOFESTO”…SO TRY READING “CAPITAL”
    LEFT AND RIGHT ARE OUT-OF-DATE CONCEPTS.REAL POLITIK IS AUTHORITARIAN OR LIBERTARIAN.WHAT WE LIVE IN IS STATE CAPITALISM ITS THE SAME AS STATE SOCIALISM.

    LIBERTARIAN SOCIALISM is a much better and PROVEN solution. It has worked and IS WORKING TODAY!

    It truly depends on your definition of “working”.

    WELL IT SAVED ARGENTINA IN 2002 ,ADMITTEDLY IT IS ERODING AS WE SPEAK. SPAIN WAS ANOTHER WORKING EXAMPLE UNTIL FRANCO HAD TO GET HITLER AND THE VATICAN TO HELP WIPE THEM OUT.
    OPEN SOURSE SOFTWARE IS ANOTHER MODERN EXAMPLE OF LIBERTARIAN SOCIALISM IN ACTION…..IT WORKS VERY WELL.

    Correct. This is the mechanism of free men – those that pay, get. Thus, the resources are delivered to those that pay the most wealth for them – thus, the resources go to those that value that resource the most.

    Thus all resources are delivered and traded for the greatest wealth – which will, with no exceptions, increase the wealth of society.

    DELUSIONAL RUBBISH.OF COURSE YOU WILL SELL YOUR RESOURSES AT THE BEST PRICE AND BE HAPPY. YOUR CHILDREN BETTER BE FINACIALLY WELL OFF IF THEY WANT TO USE THE RESOURSES YOU COULD USE AND PROFFITTED FROM!!!
    EVEN THOMAS PAINE UNDERSTOOD THIS
    “There could be no such thing as landed property originally. Man did not make the earth, and, though he had a natural right to occupy it, he had no right to locate as his property in perpetuity any part of it.” Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice.

    “Create a national fund, out of which there shall be paid to every person, when arrived at the age of twenty-one years, the sum of fifteen pounds sterling, as a compensation in part, for the loss of his or her natural inheritance, by the introduction of the system of landed property.” Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice.

    AS FOR THE “KILLING FIELDS” THATS FOR AUTHORITARIANS …I’M A LIBERTARIAN!!SPAIN AND ARGENTINA BOTH SAW HUGE RISES IN THE QUALITY OF LIFE TURNING TO LIBERTARIAN SOCIALISM, IT WAS THE AUTHORITARIANS THAT CAUSED THE KILLING FIELDS!!!

  39. cuthulan says:

    BLACK FLAG ,OUR MUTUAL ENEMY IS STATE CAPITALISM
    State capitalism has various different meanings, but is usually described as a society wherein the productive forces are controlled and directed by the state in a capitalist manner, even if such a state calls itself socialist. Corporatized state agencies and states that own controlling shares of publicly-listed firms, and thus acting as a capitalist itself, are two examples of state capitalism

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism

    OF COURSE THIS IS JUST FASCISM!!

    Fascism should more appropriately be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power.
    Benito Mussolini, fascist dictator of Italy (1922-1943)
    LIBERTARIANISM IS THE FUTURE.
    BUT DO NOT BE DECIEVED INTO SWAPPING BIG GOVERNMENT AUTHORITARIANISM FOR BIG BUSINESS AUTHORITARIANISM WHICH YOU SEEM TO BE ADVOCATING!!!
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2010/07/30/libertarian-socialists-the-original-and-real-libertarians/

    THE REASON AMERICA SEEMED TO WORK FROM THE 1600’S WAS NOT FREE-MARKET CAPITALISM!! IT WAS RESOURSE THEFT!! EVERY PERSON THAT HAD IS WORK OR LAND STOLEN BY BIG BUSINESS JUST “WENT WEST” AND STOLE THE RESOURSES FROM THE NATIVE AMERICANS. THIS COULD ONLY WORK UNTIL THE RESOURSES RAN OUT!! IT ALSO IRRADICATED THE NATIVE INDIAN POPULATION….THE SAME HAPPENED IN THE SCOTTISH HIGHLANDS

  40. cuthulan says:

    @BLACK FLAG
    ITS THE SYSTEM WE NEED TO REFORM ,POLITICAL PARTIES ARE JUST A DISTRACTION.
    REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY IS JUST AN ELECTED DICTATORSHIP.ITS SPARTAN NOT ATHENIAN!! WE NEED DIRECT DEMOCRACY TODAY!!
    Direct democracy, classically termed pure democracy, is a form of democracy and a theory of civics in which sovereignty is lodged in the assembly of all citizens who choose to participate. Depending on the particular system, this assembly might pass executive motions, make laws, elect or dismiss officials, and conduct trials. Direct democracy stands in contrast to representative democracy, (UK, US and EU)where sovereignty is exercised by a subset of the people, usually on the basis of election…….i.e. an Elected Dictatorship OR the choice of Tweedle dee or Tweedle dum, as today all our government representatives, represent the same lobby groups…Its just soviet Russia without the moral code!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy

    IF we had a direct democracy ,we would not be in illegal wars , we would not be bailing out fraudulant bankers , we would of arrested our war criminals and paedophiles in power.I believe this is a very achievable goal
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2010/10/08/how-do-we-achieve-freedom-liberty-and-democracy-without-fuss-or-bloodshed/

    Economically I believe RESOURSES are NOT FOR SALE! They belong to the people that live with them, they are the custodians NOT THE OWNERS.Everyone should have free access to these resourses, this should be driven by need rather than profit! What a person manufactures from these resourses belongs to that worker, NOT the state ,the community or the corporation!

    OR WE CAN SELL ALL THE RESOURSES TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER OR THE GREEDYIST PROFIT DRIVEN PERSON.
    THEN WE WILL HAVE THE REAL “KILLING FIELDS” THE SAME FIELDS FULL OF DEAD NATIVE AMERICANS AND SCOTTISH HIGHLANDERS OR MODERN DAY NIGERIANS ETC ETC…YOUR KILLING FIELDS ,NOT MINE!!

  41. Black Flag says:

    cuthulan

    @BLACK FLAG
    “Unfortunately it created a new ROBBER CLASS , the industrial barons and the NEW RICH!”

    This is not correct.
    Government – by edict – forced itself into the marketplace and by its choice of violence destroyed merit.
    It pushed wealth and goods to those that were favored by government and away from those who earned.
    SORRY THIS IS RUBBISH. 1600 THE EAST INDIA COMPANY FORMED THERE WHERE NO TAXES OR “GOVERNMENT” THAT WE WOULD REGOGNISE.THE RULING CLASS GAINED WEALTH BY LAND AND SERVICES.

    You are terribly confused.

    The Government gave the East India Company a monopoly to operate on behalf of the government.

    31 December 1600, the Queen granted a Royal Charter to “George, Earl of Cumberland, and 215 Knights, Aldermen, and Burgesses” under the name, Governor and Company of Merchants of London trading with the East Indies.[10] The charter awarded the newly formed company, for a period of fifteen years, a monopoly of trade (known today as a patent) with all countries to the east of the Cape of Good Hope and to the west of the Straits of Magellan.[10] Sir James Lancaster commanded the first East India Company voyage in 1601.

    Given that right out of the gate you haven’t a clue about what you are taking about, I find it futile to bother to respond to anything of the rest of your post.

  42. Black Flag says:

    BLACK FLAG ,OUR MUTUAL ENEMY IS STATE CAPITALISM

    The enemy is the State.

    Apply the word “State” as an adjective to any human action, and you will create evil.

    Remove the State, and evil abates.

  43. Black Flag says:

    WE NEED DIRECT DEMOCRACY TODAY!!

    Democracy is by far the worse political organization possible for government.

    It provides diffuse responsibility:
    “It’s not my fault, everyone else voted for it”

    ..with unlimited justification to do evil:
    “If everyone voted for it, we have to do it”

    The marriage of diffuse responsibility and unlimited justification will create maximum human evil.

  44. Charles says:

    Black Flag ranting a usual, everything that he passes as truth is either, unfounded, unsound, contradictary, or unrealistic.

    Source
    http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/bcaplan/whyaust.htm
    Quote
    “Mises and Rothbard certainly produced an original alternate paradigm for economics – and applied this paradigm to a number of interesting topics. Unfortunately, the foundations of their new paradigm are unfounded, and their most important applied conclusions unsound or overstated. The reasonable intellectual course for Austrian economists to take is to give up their quest for a paradigm shift and content themselves with sharing whatever valuable substantive contributions they have to offer with the rest of the economics profession – and of course, with the intellectually involved public. In sum, Milton Friedman spoke wisely when he declared that “there is no Austrian economics – only good economics, and bad economics,” to which I would append: “Austrians do some good economics, but most good economics is not Austrian.”
    Quote end.

    Source
    http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/bcapla/ausfin2.doc
    Quote
    “Mises, Rothbard, and Kirzner make an impressive attempt to produce a sound alternative foundation for economics; yet in the final analysis, their proffered foundations are incorrect.”
    End quote.

  45. Lets not forget as “enemy”, testosterone addiction who makes unbalanced people(no not only men!) greedy for power and willing to do EVERYTHING to cling to their daily supply.Observe the body language of politicians and all this “serious” column s of society.

    To neglect this little aspect, might lead to the next “paths paved with good intentions”.
    I found it funny to get completely ignored in this “manly discourse”and know why!

    I think, a bit less macho culture in general and more cultural creativity (no, not more “fashion” style!)would do good to this island.

  46. cuthulan says:

    @BLACK FLAG
    “31 December 1600, the Queen granted a Royal Charter ”

    YES THE QUEEN ,NOT THE GOVERNMENT. PRIVATEERS ,PIRATES AND OTHERS WHERE HAPPILY PLYING THIER TRADE AS WELL ACROSS THE “NEW WORLD” AND AFRICA!ITS WHAT MOST OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS ARE DESCENDED FROM,THE SUCCESSFUL PIRATES

    “Given that right out of the gate you haven’t a clue about what you are taking about, I find it futile to bother to respond to anything of the rest of your post.”

    YES I KNOW THE FEELING ,BUT I WILL CONTINUE TO ENLIGHTEN YOUR IGNORANCE ANYWAY!!

    “The enemy is the State.
    Apply the word “State” as an adjective to any human action, and you will create evil.
    Remove the State, and evil abates.”

    LOL,HAHAHAHAHAHA….COME ON , YOU DON’T REALLY BELIEVE THIS DO YOU. ITS COMPLETE NONSENSE!!
    SO SOVIET RUSSIA WAS A WONDERLAND AND EVIL GETS LESS AS GOVERNMENTS GROW?!?THIS IS THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF REALITY.POWERS CORRUPTS, ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY. A LOT OF HUMAN ACTIONS HOLD GREAT VIRTUE,REAL HEROES WALK OUR STREETS,THEY JUST DO NOT HAVE MEDALS!! YOU ARE SPEAKING SOME OF THE BIGGEST BOLLOCKS I’VE HEARD!

    “Democracy is by far the worse political organization possible for government.
    It provides diffuse responsibility:
    “It’s not my fault, everyone else voted for it”
    ..with unlimited justification to do evil:
    “If everyone voted for it, we have to do it”
    The marriage of diffuse responsibility and unlimited justification will create maximum human evil.”

    NOW HERE YOU ARE REALLY SHOWING YOUR IGNORANCE.
    THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DIRECT AND RESPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY.DIRECT DEMOCRACIES ARE NOT INVOLVED IN ILLEGAL WARS OR BAILOUTS!
    IF YOU MEAN WE DO NOT NEED GOVERNMENTS AT ALL , I AGREE, SO DOES KARL MARX AND ADAM SMITH. BUT HOW DO WE GET THERE? DIRECT DEMOCRACY IS A MASSIVE IMPROVEMENT ON THE CURRENT SYSTEM AND A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. IT WOULD OF STOPPED THE BAILOUT, STOPPED THE ILLEGAL WARS, AND ARRESTED GUILTY BANKERS AND POLITIONS! THATS WHAT HAPPENED IN ICELAND.IT WOULD KEEP OUR GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABLE
    YOU COME ACROSS AS BEING VERY YOUNG AND IDEALISTIC BUT WITH LITTLE REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE.
    JUST FOR YOU HERE’S FREE MARKET CAPITALISM EXPLAINED
    1.Availability of credit allows money to flow between savers and borrowers.
    2.Resources and funds are allocated to various projects or investments during a boom phase.
    3.Eventually borrowing becomes excessive and leads to malinvestment,
    4.At this stage, adherence to free market theory would allow for an efficient cleansing period and a healthy recovery period. How? Irresponsible and unprofitable businesses fail. Bad debts get liquidated. Excess resources go on sale, flow into more stable ventures and pool together with more profitable resources controlled by healthy corporations or entities
    http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article6497.html
    ITS CALLED A “BOOM AND BUST” ECONOMY. AND AFTER A COUPLE OF CYCLES THE RESOURSES ARE IN THE HANDS OF THE MINORITY…LIBERTARIAN OR NOT!!
    IT PRODUCED FACTORY SLAVES AND “KILLING FIELDS”
    SO..NO THANKS
    BTW .THOMAS PAINE’S AGRARIAN JUSTICE AND COMMON SENSE ,ARE ASLO WELL WORTH A READ
    IT IS REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY (ELECTED DICTATORSHIP) THAT CAUSES WARS AND DEBTS AND PROTECTS THUGS AND PAEDOPHILES.
    ITS THE PEOPLE THAT FIGHT THE WARS , PAY THE DEBTS AND GET BEATEN BY STATE THUGS AND HAVE THIER CHILDREN STOLEN.
    END REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY TODAY!

  47. cuthulan says:

    @BLACK FLAG
    Another personal example of your economic ignorance. The fishing industry in Scotland. While it was fished by the locals ,you could almost walk to Ireland on the backs of cod.It had been this way for countless centuries.Even when we joined the EU we had 80% of Europes fish.
    Today the seas are empty and the local fishermen are unemployed. Factory boats vacuum cleaned the seas FOR PROFIT!
    Local industries destroyed , local communitees ruined , resourses plundered! If you repeat the same action and expect a different result ,you are clinically insane!

  48. Black Flag says:

    cuthulan

    “31 December 1600, the Queen granted a Royal Charter ”

    YES THE QUEEN ,NOT THE GOVERNMENT.

    Son, the queen was the government to update your obvious failed history schooling.

    PRIVATEERS ,PIRATES AND OTHERS WHERE HAPPILY PLYING THIER TRADE AS WELL ACROSS THE “NEW WORLD” AND AFRICA!ITS WHAT MOST OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS ARE DESCENDED FROM,THE SUCCESSFUL PIRATES

    …and so what? Your argument is terribly disjointed.

    “Given that right out of the gate you haven’t a clue about what you are taking about, I find it futile to bother to respond to anything of the rest of your post.”

    YES I KNOW THE FEELING ,BUT I WILL CONTINUE TO ENLIGHTEN YOUR IGNORANCE ANYWAY!!

    Enlightenment from idiots dims the brightest bulbs.

    “The enemy is the State.

    Apply the word “State” as an adjective to any human action, and you will create evil.
    Remove the State, and evil abates.”

    LOL,HAHAHAHAHAHA….COME ON , YOU DON’T REALLY BELIEVE THIS DO YOU. ITS COMPLETE NONSENSE!!

    Great argument, it exposes the entirety of your understanding of the State.

    SO SOVIET RUSSIA WAS A WONDERLAND AND EVIL GETS LESS AS GOVERNMENTS GROW?!?

    You have serious comprehension issues.

    “Democracy is by far the worse political organization possible for government.

    It provides diffuse responsibility:
    “It’s not my fault, everyone else voted for it”
    ..with unlimited justification to do evil:
    “If everyone voted for it, we have to do it”
    The marriage of diffuse responsibility and unlimited justification will create maximum human evil.”

    NOW HERE YOU ARE REALLY SHOWING YOUR IGNORANCE.
    THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DIRECT AND RESPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY.DIRECT DEMOCRACIES ARE NOT INVOLVED IN ILLEGAL WARS OR BAILOUTS!

    There is no difference on the diffusion and justifications – they remain intact.

    It matters not that a man claims: “But the People voted for it”, or the People directly claim “But the People voted for it”.

    IF YOU MEAN WE DO NOT NEED GOVERNMENTS AT ALL , I AGREE, SO DOES KARL MARX AND ADAM SMITH. BUT HOW DO WE GET THERE?

    You do not get to a goal of no government by supporting government.

    DIRECT DEMOCRACY IS A MASSIVE IMPROVEMENT ON THE CURRENT SYSTEM AND A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. IT WOULD OF STOPPED THE BAILOUT, STOPPED THE ILLEGAL WARS, AND ARRESTED GUILTY BANKERS AND POLITIONS! THATS WHAT HAPPENED IN ICELAND.IT WOULD KEEP OUR GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABLE

    Government cannot be made accountable to itself. As it is the maker of law and the enforcer of law, it will never enforce a law that prohibits its own actions.

    Blackstone called this the Paradox of Government – it is more a contradiction, however.

    YOU COME ACROSS AS BEING VERY YOUNG AND IDEALISTIC BUT WITH LITTLE REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE.
    JUST FOR YOU HERE’S FREE MARKET CAPITALISM EXPLAINED

    Your opinions on my age or experience is as erroneous as your history education.

    Your understanding of Free Market and Capitalism is as flawed as your education.

    What you fail to account is why there is a “boom” phase. For explaination, please review Mises “On Money and Credit”

    ITS CALLED A “BOOM AND BUST” ECONOMY. AND AFTER A COUPLE OF CYCLES THE RESOURSES ARE IN THE HANDS OF THE MINORITY…LIBERTARIAN OR NOT!!

    Since you do not know the cause of the Boom, nor the cause of the Bust, your prescription of consequences is equally flawed and your solutions deadly.

    You do not understand at all the fishery issue – and your proclamations are as flawed.

  49. Black Flag says:

    Charles

    You are clueless.

    If you want to take the bizarre view I am an ignoramus and think all economics is in Rothbard and Mises and no other.

    However since Rothbard and Mises more than any other economists held the view that economics is far more than a science where the “all there “is in the work of two writers.

    Rothbard was unrelenting in arguing about the dangers of the “Great Thinkers” syndrome:

    Straussians take a few what they call “great thinkers” — I’m going to criticize that too, the concept of taking only great thinkers — they take a few great thinkers, more or less arbitrarily selected. How do they know they’re great thinkers? Well, everybody says they’re great. Machiavelli, Aristotle, Dewey, whatever. Hobbes.

    Then they say, “Since this guy is a great figure, he must’ve been consistent. Why does he have to be consistent? Well, he’s a great thinker? Who am I, a schnook professor, to challenge the greatness of this guy?” The assumption is this guy’s a great thinker.

    Most of these guys are very inconsistent. They contradict themselves on every page. Keynes did this all the time.

    It looks as if he contradicted himself, say the Straussians, but he couldn’t, because he’s a great thinker and therefore consistent. So we have to look for the “deep inner consistency.” The deep inner consistency amounts almost to astrology. It’s numerology. Strauss will say if you take the fifth book of Machiavelli’s Prince and compare it with the fifth book of the Laws, it’s this number magic, you see, the five, you look for the deep things, really explain what he’s saying. It’s really bizarre.

    So we have to realize, it seems to me, that it’s just the opposite: many thinkers are great; other thinkers are lousy. Some developed truth; others sank into error. Therefore, analyzing economists, separating who these guys are, we have to ask, To what extent were they correct? To what extent were they bad? To what extent did they push economics in a wrong detour? Etc.

    So understand what is going on here. You attack me for referencing Mises who says that it is dangerous to think only two economists have all the answers.

    Well, golly gee, who the hell would understand this better than Mises?

    Furhter Mises believed that economic writings of others should not only be read, but read in their original languages. Bettina Bien Greaves recounts:

    I’ll never forget Mises saying in his seminar, again and again, that languages are important.

    Mises great work, Human Action, made references in so many different languages and to so many obscure theories of others that a companion glossary, Mises Made Easier, was put together.

    Rothbard wrote a 2 volume history of economic thought.

    In this writing, he points out that economics started way before Adam Smith and hailed the Spanish Scholastics and the School of Salamanca.

    He wrote about Richard Cantillion, who he considered the founding father of modern economics,of the brilliance of Anne-Robert Turgot, and on and on.

    Thus, to argue to someone like me, who mentions Rothbard and Mises, and to say, you know economics goes beyond Rothbard and Mises, is a combination of sheer lunacy and ignorance that is hard to match.

    Yes, Charles, the Austrians do know economics as does:

    Hayek, Kirzner, Machlup, Morgenstern, Lachmann, Cantillon, Turgot, Bastiat, Menger, Bohm Bawerk, Robbins, Haberler, Schumpeter, Hazlitt, Hutt, Keynes, Robinson, Marshall, Rueff, Mill, Bayer, Marx, Cannan, Knight, Jevons, Lange, Friedman, Philippovich, Hicks, Galbraith, Ricardo, Fisher, Samuelson, Wu, Block, Higgs, Salerno, Boettke, Cowan, Baum, Murphy, Dilorenzo, Say, Rizzo, O’Driscoll, Thornton, Harper, Krugman, Greaves, Ebeling, Mankiw, Anderson, Garrison, Shackle, Woods, Hoppe, Sowell, Maltsev, Levitt, Stein, Armentano, Erhard, Gordon, Hulsmann, Taleb, Bernanke, Sabrin, Kinsella, Ropke, Klein, LeFevre, Greenspan, Sennholz, Williams, Solow, Roberts, Browne, Laffer, Wanniski, North, Hummel, Fetter, Reisman, Schmoller, Reich, Wieser, Shenoy, Walras, Stiglitz, Mundell, Phelps, Becker, Buchanan and on and on… We read them all, when they are right and when they are wrong, so we can understand the thinking and refine our own arguments.

    But since all you know is how to cut and paste, you will not understand a thing in this post.

  50. cuthulan says:

    “Son, the queen was the government to update your obvious failed history schooling.”

    FYI The Queen was “head of state”. Government in its modern sense did not exist.FYI The modern house of lords are the descendants of the pirates and those that owned the resourses.Stop believing the propaganda that there’s always been some “government”!

    “You do not get to a goal of no government by supporting government.”

    I agree ,so please explain how we get from our current government situation to a “governmentless” society , WHICH WE BOTH BELIEVE IN!!? I give a solution.
    YOU are not giving examples!?!?!You just give a wish list, anyone can do that as its christmas time!

    “Your understanding of Free Market and Capitalism is as flawed as your education.”

    SORRY my description of capitalism comes from….
    Money and Markets is a free daily investment newsletter from Martin D. Weiss and Weiss Research analysts offering the latest investing news and financial insights for the stock market, including tips and advice on investing in gold, energy and oil. Dr. Weiss is a leader in the fields of investing, interest rates, financial safety and economic forecasting.
    They where rather good at predicting the effects of the economic collapse,FYI i used to build datafeeds for the financial markets…BUT of course your understanding of capitalism is much better.
    SO PLEASE EXPLAIN IT OR GIVE AN EXAMPLE THAT DISPROVES MY EXAMPLE! That is how a discussion is supposed to work, you are not joining in you are just being condescending.

    “You do not understand at all the fishery issue – and your proclamations are as flawed.”

    AND YOURS ARE HOLLOW AND OPINIONATED AND FLAWED, you give no examples or clarifications!!! Just Empty words!
    As i come from a fishing community i would put money and ME understanding the situation a lot better then YOU!!
    Your attitude is exactly why governments fail. People like yourself “think” you know what’s best for EVERYBODY!
    Actually it the locals that know best!
    Its the endless chain of “social engineers” that is the problem ,not the solution!!The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics in action.The more you impose law ,the more you accelerate chaos.
    REAL libertarianism grew from the anarcho-communist movement.But when REAL libertarian principles are followed it is for the local communitees to decide how this works in practice,left or right wing.
    I should have no right to tell you what to do with your resourses and you have no right to claim mine!

    I have explained why your economic theories would lead to factory slavery and killing fields through resourse theft.Please explain why this would NOT HAPPEN!It happened before , so why not again, and what is it that is different this time?Remember it was gold and silver that was the money then not fiat paper money!!SO DON’T SAY FIAT MONEY!!!
    Here is my simplistic view on achieving a governmentless UK without fuus or bloodshed
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2010/10/08/how-do-we-achieve-freedom-liberty-and-democracy-without-fuss-or-bloodshed/
    Here’s my reasons for being a Libertarian socialist and not a Libertarian capitalist.
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2010/07/30/libertarian-socialists-the-original-and-real-libertarians/
    Here’s my reasons for believing why state capitalism is the same thing as state socialism. Can YOU really tell the difference between New Labour and old Tory. China or the US. This is our REAL AND MUTUAL ENEMY!
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2009/09/02/a-short-history-of-global-domination-or-rockefella-rothschild-and-the-capitalist-communist-nwo-con/
    I HAVE EXPLAINED ,SO PLEASE EXPLAIN YOURSELF!! JUST SAYING I’M FLAWED AND YOU ARE RIGHT, IS PATHETIC!

  51. Black Flag says:

    cuthulan

    “Son, the queen was the government to update your obvious failed history schooling.”

    FYI The Queen was “head of state”. Government in its modern sense did not exist.

    Are you even remotely aware of the century you used in your example??

    You are totally clueless and lost.

  52. Black Flag says:

    cuthulan

    I agree ,so please explain how we get from our current government situation to a “governmentless” society , WHICH WE BOTH BELIEVE IN!!? I give a solution.

    Easy and the most difficult thing you or anyone can possibly do.

    Nothing

    Give it no energy.

    You attack it, it gets energy and gets bigger.

    You champion it, it gets energy and gets bigger.

    You use it, it gets energy and gets bigger.

    The only solution – do nothing. Do not attack, support or use anything of it (to the best you can). Ignore it and it will shrink and whither.

    . Dr. Weiss is a leader in the fields of investing, interest rates, financial safety and economic forecasting.

    I would rather suggest that you read Mises – who is a real economist, with a PhD in Economics, and not Dr. Weiss, whose PhD is in anthropology – to determine your economic learning. So, yes, my understanding of capitalism and economics is much MUCH better, sir.

    I am not measuring Dr. Weiss as an investor – he may be good; he might not be.

    As i come from a fishing community i would put money and ME understanding the situation a lot better then YOU!!

    If, for example, a farmer could not hold property rights on the land that the grain he grows, do you understand that the consequence delivered to farming would be about the same as what is being dealt to fishing?

    Without property rights, the fishing is a tragedy of the commons – saving fish only provides more for someone else – thus, everyone takes as much as they can.

    Your attitude is exactly why governments fail. People like yourself “think” you know what’s best for EVERYBODY!

    No, what is best for “everyone” is property rights. What you do within those rights are up to you.

    ?Remember it was gold and silver that was the money then not fiat paper money!!SO DON’T SAY FIAT MONEY!!!

    Do you understand the concept of fractional banking system?

    As far as the links to your blog, I will certainly read them and comment on them over there.

    Thx for the links.

  53. RGB says:

    Antiphonsgarden
    “healthy food, enough warmth or life space and basic income.”

    Good food, enough warmth, space and sufficient money – I initially drafted this in my earlier post but removed it as ‘given.’

    People fortunate enough to have a garden ‘of their own’ can breath and are enriched, those who don’t are unfortunately impoverished. As you have a garden you will appreciate that nature is a great teacher – Leonardo Da Vinci immediately springs to mind. A garden is also an important place to relax and play (quality time), additionally providing the ‘option’ for everyone to produce nourishing food, cheaply.

    We are part of nature and yet in recent decades we have become disconnected from nature. A ladybird placed on a child’s hand, for the first time, creates wonderment, appreciation and learning, a connection with nature today that is often abandoned in favour of modern living values.

    Our numbers have dramatically increased from an estimated 1 billion in the early c.1800 to 6.9 billion today and growing. There is only so much inhabitable land – in the UK we continue to build on flood plains!

    I strongly believe that everyone should have their own space but unfortunately meeting this desire, with an ever increasing population, will create additional stresses on nature. We abuse the balance of nature at our peril.

    On a black note the black death remains the greatest disaster in European history that opened up new opportunities for peasants.

    A well written, interesting, article about the Black Death covering wealth creation, population, and economy.
    http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/Routt.Black.Death

  54. Charles says:

    Black Flag its you who believe what most economists reject, they reject it because it is unsound and its you who has to prove you are right. The problem is for you is Austrian School method of deriving theories “non-empirical” analysis and differs from the practices of scientific theorizing, as widely conducted in economics. So you cannot prove anything really, your possition is the product of thought that is not tested by any falsification so you have no real truth to sell.

    Basic logic creates big holes in your arguments which you just ignore. To you they don’t exist, contractions, unfounded statements and unsound conclusions don’t matter.

    You just rant that your religion of truth is right, funny thing is the logical holes can be seen by everyone in two seconds but you. I have provided links but there is no reaching you, you are a religious zealot for laissez faire approach to the economy. Its funny how you lot come out of the wood work everytime capitalism fails.

    Important read maybe, he predicts the bank problems decades ago. Its what I am reading atm.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyman_Minsky

    http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/09/13/why_capitalism_fails/

  55. I have make a conscious choice decades ago towards this “humble” life.Overpopulation is not the problem, when 1 person over here abuses the resources of 100 over there.
    Enough land exist if cultivate thoughtful, but what do I hear each winter around me…the chainsaw cutting trees and hedges for “bigger fields”of 1!!!! farmer who has taken over all little fields around from the old farmers.And he is not the only one, this “logic” of greed and thoughtless abuse of our common ground is wide spread.Evident result, the water does not get stopped, the wind increases his speed&strength,the soil erosion(not to mention the chemicals!)goes on and on and on ,each summer, I see more and more dust devils in this oversized fields.Once gone, IT S GONE! Unbelievable how fast the destruction of this few years ago, quiet preserve era goes on.Each year more into the WRONG direction.Yuppies don’t know how their disconnected consumerist lifestyle, creates agro factory deserts.
    At least skilled craftsmanship is still a value over here, compare to other places, but for how long.

    I question those who want to enter this pretend elite job factory’s,….WHAT FOR?
    What do you TRULY want by that?
    Change or PARTICIPATION?…Let me guess!
    Somewhere I mistrust this petits bourgeois upset “petite” revolt, unwilling to see the bigger picture.

  56. RGB says:

    Our Gov have crazily decided it’s time for a massive sale of our forests!

    http://www.38degrees.org.uk/page/content/save-our-forests-campaign

  57. “our”, no!
    “THEIRS”!

    The stupid cynicism of thoughtless disconnected pompous idiots who still think “they” and “their mates” deserves big private propriety’s and the rest of humanity expensive shit on sticks.

  58. cuthulan says:

    @Black Flag
    SAYS
    “Son, the queen was the government to update your obvious failed history schooling.”

    FYI The Queen was “head of state”. Government in its modern sense did not exist.

    Are you even remotely aware of the century you used in your example??
    You are totally clueless and lost.
    NO I THINK YOU ARE CLUELESS AND LOST!!

    The British Monarch, currently Queen Elizabeth II is the United Kingdom’s head of state but takes little direct part in government.
    The Government Ministers are supported by 560,000[7] Civil Servants and other staff working in the 24 Ministerial Departments[8] and their executive agencies. There are also an additional 26 non-Ministerial Departments with a range of further responsibilities.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uk_government
    THERE WAS NOTHING LIKE THE UK GOVERNMENT IN THE 1600’S AND THE QUEEN IS THE HEAD OF STATE ,NOT THE GOVERNMENT!!

    Black flag you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.Also trying to simplistically explain your solutions would help others realise that there are other options than the status quo!
    As a Libertarian I support your views,to a point,BUT I do have an economic background and from my experience I have never found an economic philosophy that actually works!!! Not to say its impossible , just highly unlikely.Refusing to explain your views clearly ,because YOU consider us not able to understand them just makes you look bad. It either means you intend to impose this economic philosophy on people that do not undestand it , which is authoritarian and not libertarian in anyway! OR in reality its beyond YOU ABILITIES to describe it!
    I suppose you call yourself a “free market anarchist” rather than a libertarian.People like Ron Paul and Alex Jones are NOT TRUE LIBERTARIANS!They are free-market anarchists or Ayn Rand objectavists,so I wish they would stop calling themselves libertarians.
    The economic excuses now are that these free market philosphies have not been tried yet , or that is the claim, be it REAL free market Austrian capitalism OR Ayn Rand Objectavism ,I’ve heard the same from the state socialists about REAL socialism never been tried,sorry but I’ve heard it all,and i do not believe any of it!
    I am about as encouraged to read your version of economic system solutions ,as I am about reading about political system solutions and orthodox religious dogma!
    For ME,and I believe ALL original Libertarians , the idea was to rid ourselves of authoritarians!
    Be it political ,moral,or economical
    So we need economists about as much as we need politions and priests!
    IF we can have society without government , morals without god ,then why not trade without economists?
    I see it as a libetraian failure if we where to free ourselves of political dictatorship ,just to subjugate us to economic dictatorship!
    A lot of “ex-colonies” are still kept economically on a leash and have thier resourses plundered in the name of free market economics!
    Austria was the home of some pretty authoraitarian politics disguised as liberating and benefitting the people, don’t fall for the economic version,its nice on paper but ultimatley will not work!
    BUT it might be a stepping stone to a REAL libetarian society!
    What we need to do is provide a simple to understand road map to get us out of our current position of political and economic dictatorship. For me its Direct TRUE Democracy and a PR system with an “empty seat” option,which whithers away the state. I would also support economic reform in the direction you suggest ,BUT ultimately I would be looking at getting rid of the economists shortly after the politions!
    For example , you say that the student fees will be a good thing in the long run! ABSOLUTE RUBBISH!
    Education should be for those with the ABILITY TO DO , not the ABILITY TO PAY!
    The education system needs a reform so its an education system again and not an indoctrination system of debt control.
    The top local people from all backgrounds need offered the places, once the locals with ability have thier places , i have not problems with the extra places going to the highest bidder! We also should be doing the same for apprenticships. A lot of people are genius with thier hands not thier heads, craftsmen need to be encouraged as well.Yet again going first to those locals with the ability, then the extra places can go to the highest bidder.
    This would make achieving good grades at school worthwhile and would also reward those that can achieve.This could all be finaced by those without the ability but willing to pay
    Stopping the local people with ability from improving themselves, maybe makes finacial sense , but its social insanity and ultimatley devicive and
    destructive. Economics does not recognise culture , compasion or need, that is why it must ultimately fail ,it knows the price of everything and the VALUE of nothing! ITS A FANATASY ,its NOT BASED IN REALITY!
    Its the same with all “social engineers” within each system lies its own destruction, or as I say ,you cannot impose a logirythm on a biorythm ,it will
    ultimately kill the biorythm or the biorythm will reject the logirythm! Be it a political , religious or economical logirythm ,its doomed to failure!

    BUT please keep blogging , try and spread the information and I too will try and stop by your blog and read your posts.
    the more people THINKING the better!
    Merry winter solstace 😉
    …and goodwill to all

  59. cuthulan says:

    @Black Flag
    IS THIS REALLY THE BEST YOU CAN COME UP WITH?!
    “Easy and the most difficult thing you or anyone can possibly do.
    Nothing
    Give it no energy.
    You attack it, it gets energy and gets bigger.
    You champion it, it gets energy and gets bigger.
    You use it, it gets energy and gets bigger.
    The only solution – do nothing. Do not attack, support or use anything of it (to the best you can). Ignore it and it will shrink and whither.”

    Hmmmmm…not much of a philosphy.A bit of a dream and not really that workable.Ignore it and it’ll go away..i don’t think so .So we will not be seeing YOU on the streets protesting? Even Gandhi believed in civil disobedience and non-violent resistance ……but not the rightwing economics 😉
    But I suppose its one solution…. Merry winter solstace and goodwill to all and
    PEACE ON EARTH!!

  60. Black Flag says:

    cuthulan

    NO I THINK YOU ARE CLUELESS AND LOST!!

    The British Monarch, currently Queen Elizabeth II is the United Kingdom’s head of state but takes little direct part in government.

    You used the East India Company, created in 1600’s, when Elizabeth I was Queen.

    I think you need to return to grade school or demand they refund your tuition!

    THERE WAS NOTHING LIKE THE UK GOVERNMENT IN THE 1600′S AND THE QUEEN IS THE HEAD OF STATE ,NOT THE GOVERNMENT!!

    You raised an company formed in the 1600, and now you don’t want to use that as an example? I understand, it undermines your argument.

    Black flag you catch more flies with honey than vinegar

    I am not interested in catching flies.

    .Also trying to simplistically explain your solutions would help others realise that there are other options than the status quo!

    I am not advocating for the status quo.

    The status quo is accepting government, using government, supporting government – and I do not advocate for that at all.

    As a Libertarian I support your views,to a point,BUT I do have an economic background

    That background – probably rooted in Keynesian or Monetarist theory – is deadly to humanity.

    and from my experience I have never found an economic philosophy that actually works!!!

    Define “works”.

    If you mean “no matter what I do, it will make me successful”, then none exists or ever will exist.

    If you mean “explains if *I do this*, I can expect this consequence”, then try Austrian economic theory. It does a very good job.

    Not to say its impossible , just highly unlikely.

    You haven’t done enough homework, then.

    Refusing to explain your views clearly ,because YOU consider us not able to understand them just makes you look bad.

    My views are clear.

    If you do not understand, ask questions -proper questions- that at least demonstrates a modicum of thinking. I will not do your thinging for you.

    I do not care how I look to you.

    It either means you intend to impose this economic philosophy on people that do not undestand it , which is authoritarian and not libertarian in anyway! OR in reality its beyond YOU ABILITIES to describe it!

    Your world appears filled with false dichotomies.

    It is not in anyone’s ability to twist the fate of man beyond which the aggregate of individuals wish to push toward.

    The ONLY power that possibly exists is within the promotion of different ideas.

    Ideas always precede action. Changing your thinking and things change.

    I suppose you call yourself a “free market anarchist”

    It appears a human need to “label” other people. However, most often, these labels are wrong.

    I am closer to a description of “Sovereign Individual”, if you need to put a label on my file.

    As such, as I am an individual, I am an advocate of freedom – whose offspring is the free market – and as I am sovereign, I do not accept illegitimate authority, which under the strict definition, makes me an anarchist (no right to rule).

    The economic excuses now are that these free market philosphies have not been tried yet

    No one serious says this, or if they do, they are trying to simplify an answer for a question from people (most people, unfortunately) who do not have enough base understanding to actually understand any coherent answer – which must be complex in its depth.

    Free market is the norm and optimum – you use it for nearly all of your economic trades right now.

    You offer to trade for goods without the use or threat of violence on or by either trading party.

    What also exists inside this market place is forces of violence – the major one is government – who seizes goods by violence or its threat, and in the case of government to legitimize this seizure, gives a part of this seized wealth to other groups of people.

    In this matter, the marketplace will distort around the use of violence – and make different decisions (that is, NON-economic decisions) to avoid or mitigate the consequences of this violence which will detract from the optimum operation of a free market.

    It is the statement that the market has almost always had government as a force of violence within the marketplace that the statement “it hasn’t ever been a truly free market place” is referenced to apply.

    It means that there are systemic distortions in the market place that would not exist if government was not there.

    Some of these systemic distortions are in a magnitude of size large enough to fundamentally disrupt the whole economy and bring it to a halt.

    To charge that “free market economics” is unable to “correct” these massive systemic disruptions is a massive misunderstanding.

    It is, in fact, the free market system correcting these massive disruptions – the free market system stops providing goods to such an economy, which will starve the cause of the disruption and eliminate it.

    The consequence of maintaining the disruption of violence (such as government) within the marketplace has been determined by the market place to be far worse and larger then the disruption and pain of the loss of economic trade.

    I hope this very brief review will aid your understanding of the very simplified version (“there has never been a truly free market place”)

    I’ve heard the same from the state socialists about REAL socialism never been tried,sorry but I’ve heard it all,and i do not believe any of it!

    If “real” socialism is every fully achieved, the collapse of civilization will have occurred.

    Without the ability to establish private property, the trade will collapse.

    Without trade, the division of labor as a system to provide goods will collapse.

    As no man can produce all things for his survival, the collapse of trade and the division of labor will be civilization’s death sentence. We will devolve back to nomads and roving gangs of barbarians.

    For an articulate explanation, please read here:
    http://mises.org/books/socialism/conclusion.aspx

    So we need economists about as much as we need politions and priests!

    You need economists about as much as you need scientists. If you have no need for human progress, then you do not need economists or scientists.

    IF we can have society without government , morals without god ,then why not trade without economists?

    You do trade without them. You do not need some to tell you why you trade or the probable consequences of your trade for you to trade.

    You are confused to what an economist does.

    A scientist endeavors to explain “cause and effect” – “if you let loose the apple, it will fall”. He does NOT cause the action nor the effect. He explains it.

    An economist is a non-physical (social) scientist.

    All he does is explain cause and effect of human action.

    “If you do this, this will happen”.

    He does NOT cause the action nor the effect. He explains it.

    You can use this knowledge of scientists to make decisions of your action.

    “If I drop this glass, it will fall and it will break. I should not drop this glass”

    “If I raise my price of my labor, it will be in less demand. I am working too many hours, therefore if I raise my price, I will have more free time. I should raise my price if I want more free time”

    What you are confused about are the activist scientists. These are a group of men who believe they can manipulate outcomes by manipulating other humans by manipulating their understanding – and partly, they are right.

    If you are a good liar, you will be able to manipulate people into making bad decisions for themselves but good outcomes for you.

    If you do not need to understand cause and effect, economists are no value to you.

    I would suggest, however, that understanding that your actions create certain consequences is valuable for it enables you to make better decisions, and better decisions tend to provide better outcomes.

    Austria was the home of some pretty authoraitarian politics disguised as liberating and benefitting the people, don’t fall for the economic version,its nice on paper but ultimatley will not work!

    Austria was not where economics was discovered.

    The University in Austria was where some men articulated certain economic theory.

    Thus, it is identifying the school of thought not the geography.

    Such, the “University of Chicago” is where the roots of modern monetarist theory was founded, so we call that the “Chicago School Economics”, etc.

    Other schools of thought are identified by the person who founded it, such as Marx as in “Marxist theory”

    BUT it might be a stepping stone to a REAL libetarian society!
    What we need to do is provide a simple to understand road map to get us out of our current position of political and economic dictatorship. For me its Direct TRUE Democracy and a PR system with an “empty seat” option,which whithers away the state.

    The use of evil and violence to overthrow evil and violence will simply replace one evil and its violence with another evil and its violence.

    This is why every revolution always creates a consequence of horror equal (or worse) than what was replaced.

    The only way is to refuse the use of violence as a tool against evil and violence.

    The means creates and justifies the ends.

    For example , you say that the student fees will be a good thing in the long run! ABSOLUTE RUBBISH!
    Education should be for those with the ABILITY TO DO , not the ABILITY TO PAY!

    Education is an economic good, no different then any other, and thus has a value and a price.

    If you by violence force others to provide you an economic good, you are a thief and a evil man.

    The education system needs a reform so its an education system again and not an indoctrination system of debt control.

    No less than the “food system” is optimum in the exercise of free men, so will education.

    The top local people from all backgrounds need offered the places, once the locals with ability have thier places , i have not problems with the extra places going to the highest bidder!

    Then you advocate for evil.

    You force others to pay for the economic gain of other people.

    We also should be doing the same for apprenticships. A lot of people are genius with thier hands not thier heads, craftsmen need to be encouraged as well.

    They need no violence to encourage them. Craftsmen are interested in those who are capable of increasing wealth – and by that encouragement, anyone with natural skill will -naturally- gravitate in using their skill for profit.

    Yet again going first to those locals with the ability, then the extra places can go to the highest bidder.

    You advocate for evil as you demand others pay for someone else’s benefit.

    This would make achieving good grades at school worthwhile and would also reward those that can achieve.

    You advocate for evil as you demand everyone attend government schools.

    This could all be finaced by those without the ability but willing to pay

    This is how the free market works already.

    You buy (that is, trade money for goods) what you cannot provide for yourself.

    Economics does not recognise culture , compasion or need, that is why it must ultimately fail ,it knows the price of everything and the VALUE of nothing! ITS A FANATASY ,its NOT BASED IN REALITY!

    Gravity does not recognize culture, compassion or need – that is why it must ultimately fail – it knows the mass of everything and the value of nothing. It is a fantasy and it is not based in reality.

    …now review what you said and you will find your complaint equally ridiculous.

    Merry winter solstace 😉

    …and goodwill to all

    and a Merry Saturnalia to you too!

  61. Black Flag says:

    RGB;

    Allow me to correct many of your errors in assumptions.

    Our numbers have dramatically increased from an estimated 1 billion in the early c.1800 to 6.9 billion today and growing.

    True.

    Success in biology is measured by the size of the sample.

    Humans have never been more successful than we are today. We are rapidly multiplying, which means we seem to have discovered some fundamental actions that are propelling us into success.

    This is a very good thing, if you are human.

    There is only so much inhabitable land – in the UK we continue to build on flood plains!

    This is true.

    But what is not true is the assumption that more people are requiring a linear demand on land.

    In fact, today, we use less land to feed more people – every year, humans are returning more and more land to fallow even though the population is growing.

    And I am sure you are noticing that humans tend to build in 3 dimensions – we are building UP more than we are building sideways. There are human buildings that hold more people then in an average small town.

    I strongly believe that everyone should have their own space but unfortunately meeting this desire, with an ever increasing population, will create additional stresses on nature. We abuse the balance of nature at our peril.

    Nature is never under “stress” – Nature is just “is”.

    Nature is not in balance – which assumes there is a “perfect center” – no such thing exists.

    Nature is chaos – and is dynamic – it is never in equilibrium – never.

    Nature operates on massive, natural (that is, laws of the universe) negative feedback loops.

    Think of a marble in a milk can sitting on a paint shaker.

    The marble is never stable – it is always bouncing everywhere inside the paint can. No one has any idea where the marble will be in the next second, let alone the next hour.

    You kick the paint shaker at the same time.
    Question: how much more chaos have you introduced?
    Answer: zero

    But the marble stays within the negative feedback loop created by the walls of the paint can. Kick it all you want – chaos does not “improve” or “degrade” … it is simply “is”.

    Worry not – humans are successful; we are becoming more successful; the earth and nature are just fine and perfect.

  62. cuthulan says:

    @Black Flag
    “You used the East India Company, created in 1600′s, when Elizabeth I was Queen.

    I think you need to return to grade school or demand they refund your tuition!”

    I think YOU are being intentionally obtuse!! I was pointing out that “the head of state” and government are 2 different bodies be it 1600 or today. I understand acknowledging this undermines your arguement.

    Also you theory of ignoring government ,and it’ll go away is just ridiculous! Less people vote for government every year but it just keeps growing. This is what made a laughing stock of Marx ,he said the government will just whither away when we don’t need it anymore! IT DIDN’T , IT STILL DOSEN’T!!

    You could of just admitted you where into Austrian economics and i would of understood.But thanks for the run thru.But still not heard anything new and still not convinced.

    With your great knowledge of economics you will be able to give a working example of an economy ,past or present.Not just your theoretical model!

    “The top local people from all backgrounds need offered the places, once the locals with ability have thier places , i have not problems with the extra places going to the highest bidder!

    Then you advocate for evil.

    You force others to pay for the economic gain of other people.”

    NO I would say YOU advocate evil ,as you expect local resourses be used by others before the locals.
    In my version ,the locals are provided for and the EXCESS goes on the “free-market”.What you advocate is economic authoritarianism! That’s pretty evil!

    “You advocate for evil as you demand others pay for someone else’s benefit”
    NO I advocate the same as Thomas Paine. You pay recompense for using the resourses of others! Anything else is theft or evil!

    I also understand cause and effect very well physical and economic, but i look at the REAL WORLD, not just the economic models which fasinate you!

    “The use of evil and violence to overthrow evil and violence will simply replace one evil and its violence with another evil and its violence.”

    This I agree with! That’s why i advocate direct democracy as step 1 and Proportional Representation with a “empty seat” option as step 2. No fuss no violence , a natural whithering away of the state.

    “Gravity does not recognize culture, compassion or need – that is why it must ultimately fail – it knows the mass of everything and the value of nothing. It is a fantasy and it is not based in reality.”

    Gravity is not a myth!It is very predictable! It knows BOTH MASS AND WEIGHT that is why it works! It is nothing like economics!!
    I totally disagree with the idea of economists being in anyway as valuable as scientists.
    BUT Gravity survives very well without scientists I can only suppose trade can survive without economists!
    ….But scientists are still useful for other things than studying gravity! Economists are not!
    I still think economics is theoretical fantasy and economists closer to priests following THIER beliefs dispite the evidence ,than scientsists testing beliefs and disgarding the disproven ones
    Thanks for the effort in explaining, …. and a very Merry Saturnalia to you too.

  63. Black Flag says:

    cuthulan

    @Black Flag
    “You used the East India Company, created in 1600′s, when Elizabeth I was Queen.

    I think you need to return to grade school or demand they refund your tuition!”

    I think YOU are being intentionally obtuse!! I was pointing out that “the head of state” and government are 2 different bodies be it 1600 or today.

    You are not truthful.

    You said this:
    THIS IS RUBBISH. 1600 THE EAST INDIA COMPANY FORMED THERE WHERE NO TAXES OR “GOVERNMENT”

    And, I responded with ample fact that contradicts your claim.

    End of story.

  64. Black Flag says:

    cuthulan

    Also you theory of ignoring government ,and it’ll go away is just ridiculous! Less people vote for government every year but it just keeps growing.

    First I did not say “ignore”, I said “do nothing with it”. There is a massive difference (though “ignoring” is a part of “do nothing”).

    “Not voting” is incredibly important, but not the sole means.

    If you do not vote, yet still partake in government largess – you are still empowering it.

    It is not just “one thing”, it is a multitude of things that needs “not be done with government”

    This is what made a laughing stock of Marx ,he said the government will just whither away when we don’t need it anymore! IT DIDN’T , IT STILL DOSEN’T!!

    He was correct in that part.

    It hasn’t because people STILL demand government.

    Government will not disappear when men are free.
    When men free themselves, government will evaporate.

    You could of just admitted you where into Austrian economics and i would of understood.

    I am “into” a number of things, but I do not believe you understand.

    But thanks for the run thru.But still not heard anything new and still not convinced.

    Not my problem.

    With your great knowledge of economics you will be able to give a working example of an economy ,past or present.Not just your theoretical model!

    You live it every day, and it is so pervasive and mundane, you do not even see it.

    It is like the air you breath – you couldn’t live without it, but you don’t even know its there.

    “The top local people from all backgrounds need offered the places, once the locals with ability have thier places , i have not problems with the extra places going to the highest bidder!

    Then you advocate for evil.

    You force others to pay for the economic gain of other people.”

    NO I would say YOU advocate evil ,as you expect local resourses be used by others before the locals.

    Why do “locals” (and who knows what your definition of that may be … is it anyone within 10 feet? 10 miles? 1000 miles? This solar system? This galaxy?…) have more rights than anyone else?

    In my version ,the locals are provided for and the EXCESS goes on the “free-market”.

    W

    Whatever your definition of “local” means (shrug, god knows) what do they have MORE RIGHTS then anyone else?

    hat you advocate is economic authoritarianism! That’s pretty evil!

    No, the opposite.

    I do not apply a different set of rights to a group of people *over there* than people *over here*.

    The plan you advocate for does.

    “You advocate for evil as you demand others pay for someone else’s benefit”
    NO I advocate the same as Thomas Paine. You pay recompense for using the resourses of others! Anything else is theft or evil!

    Then abide by your principles without contradiction.

    I dare you.

    I also understand cause and effect very well physical and economic, but i look at the REAL WORLD, not just the economic models which fasinate you!

    So in your “real” world you merely mouth your principles but act to contradict your mouth.

    “The use of evil and violence to overthrow evil and violence will simply replace one evil and its violence with another evil and its violence.”

    This I agree with! That’s why i advocate direct democracy

    The “replace evil with another evil” simply blew right through you.

    You cannot advocate for one evil over another and claim that evil has been dismissed.

    As long as you agree that a man can use violence on non-violent men – regardless of how many hands wave in the air or by what means you count those waving hands – evil remains.

    “Gravity does not recognize culture, compassion or need – that is why it must ultimately fail – it knows the mass of everything and the value of nothing. It is a fantasy and it is not based in reality.”

    Gravity is not a myth!

    We are making progress here.

    It is very predictable!

    Really? I’m sure Einstein and Planck would love to here your theory on this.

    It knows BOTH MASS AND WEIGHT that is why it works! It is nothing like economics!!

    Ah, the only difference is experiment.

    I can test gravity by dropping rocks and glasses.

    I cannot test economics by dropping UK or America.

    Thus, economics is NOT a physical science.

    It is derived by deduction, and proven post hoc – that is, left to explain what has already happened.

    Based on deduction and past cause/effect, it attempts to explain cause and effect of human action.

    “If you raise prices, demand falls”

    I totally disagree with the idea of economists being in anyway as valuable as scientists.

    (shrug)

    BUT Gravity survives very well without scientists I can only suppose trade can survive without economists!

    Yep!

    But as physical science can explain the laws of the universe, engineers can then build machines that exploit the consequences of those laws.

    Equally, as economist (at least Austrian economists) can explain the laws of human action, investors and entrepreneurs can then make decisions on investments and products that profitably exploit the consequences of human action.

    ….But scientists are still useful for other things than studying gravity! Economists are not!

    To your loss and to my profit!

    I still think economics is theoretical fantasy and economists closer to priests following THIER beliefs dispite the evidence ,than scientsists testing beliefs and disgarding the disproven ones

    Within your experience, which is probably dominated by Keynesians, I would expect you to hold such a belief, no less than if you were surrounded by astrologers and had to base your life on their prophecies.

  65. cuthulan says:

    @Black Flag
    “THIS IS RUBBISH. 1600 THE EAST INDIA COMPANY FORMED THERE WHERE NO TAXES OR “GOVERNMENT”
    And, I responded with ample fact that contradicts your claim.
    End of story.”

    NO you did NOT!! That is a LIE!I gave the examples. You responded by being condescending about my education. There was no recogniseable government at the time and pirates traded from the New World to Africa to India and to china!
    End of Story

    “First I did not say “ignore”, I said “do nothing with it”. There is a massive difference (though “ignoring” is a part of “do nothing”).

    This is what made a laughing stock of Marx ,he said the government will just whither away when we don’t need it anymore! IT DIDN’T , IT STILL DOSEN’T!!

    He was correct in that part.
    It hasn’t because people STILL demand government.
    Government will not disappear when men are free.”

    This is ridculous! Might as well say Marx was right and its just taking longer than expected for the government to whither away.So there is a big difference between ignore and do nothing.What you suggest is just laughable!!
    End of story!

    “With your great knowledge of economics you will be able to give a working example of an economy ,past or present.Not just your theoretical model!

    You live it every day, and it is so pervasive and mundane, you do not even see it.”

    I take that is a NO then.You cannot name an economic model that WORKS in REAL LIFE!!
    End of story!

    “It is like the air you breath – you couldn’t live without it, but you don’t even know its there.”

    YES and i do not need an expert or any money to breathe!!It free and its goes locally! How much would YOU sell your air for?
    End of story!

    “I do not apply a different set of rights to a group of people *over there* than people *over here*.”

    YES YOU DO!! So long as *they* have the money ,*they* have more rights over everything! Resourse theft its called!
    End of story!

    “The “replace evil with another evil” simply blew right through you.”
    NO i just live in the REAL world ,not fantasy island waiting for something to whither away, when its actually growing!
    End of story

    “Gravity is not a myth!

    We are making progress here.”

    YES Economics is a theory, gravity is reality. Yes we might be making progress.

    “It is very predictable!

    Really? I’m sure Einstein and Planck would love to here your theory on this.”

    9.81mps is the rate is acceleration due to gravity on Earth. It is just as predictable in space, I’m sure Einstein and Planck know this. YOU OBVIOUSLY DO NOT!!
    End of story!

    “….But scientists are still useful for other things than studying gravity! Economists are not!

    To your loss and to my profit!”

    You are just an economic authoritarian,just as bad as a political authoritarian, just as fanatical and delusional as a religious priest!
    End of story!

    If we wipe government away ,people like YOU would just subjugate us to economic authoritarianism, open the slave factories and fill the “killing fields” ,but the prices are cheap!!
    Try living in the real world , you might like it!

    But in the end all your insults do not persaude me and if you believe i’m advocating evil….well you have me confused with someone that gives a damn!
    I believe you are advocating evil , but you are just ignorant and deluded , not actually evil!
    End of story!
    I have heard nothing new here, so lets just agree to disagree and concentrate on getting rid of our mutual enemy, the political government!
    I’m off to start my holidays!
    Happy winter solstace , and goodwill to all and
    PEACE ON EARTH!

  66. Black Flag says:

    Charles

    its you who has to prove you are right.

    The Austrian school predicted the stagflation of the 70’s, the dot-com bubble, the Alt-A bubble, and the failure of the “quantitative easing”.

    The only problem: your eyes are covered, your ears are plugged and you are yelling “lalalalalalala” so you can avoid confronting the evidence.

    The problem is for you is Austrian School method of deriving theories “non-empirical” analysis and differs from the practices of scientific theorizing, as widely conducted in economics. So you cannot prove anything really

    Not true at all – as exampled above.

    Basic logic creates big holes in your arguments which you just ignore.

    You make these claims over and over again, but provide nothing else.

  67. Black Flag says:

    cuthulan

    “THIS IS RUBBISH. 1600 THE EAST INDIA COMPANY FORMED THERE WHERE NO TAXES OR “GOVERNMENT”
    And, I responded with ample fact that contradicts your claim.
    End of story.”

    NO you did NOT!! That is a LIE!I gave the examples. You responded by being condescending about my education. There was no recogniseable government at the time and pirates traded from the New World to Africa to India and to china!

    You do not believe England had a government in the 1600?
    You do not believe they had taxes in England in the 1600?

    Sir, you are beyond bizarre – and as such I am done with you.

  68. ….Waits patiently till the men comes out of the smoking salon to air it out!

  69. Charles says:

    @Black Flag if you had been reading anything about what I posted about the austrian school you would understand how completely retarded saying the austrian school can predict anything is. Austrian school cannot predict anything it does not use falsifiability by a particular observation or physical experiment.

    Austrian economists contend that testability in economics is virtually impossible since it relies on human actors who cannot be placed in a lab setting without altering their would-be actions. The austrian school uses a priori “non-empirical” analysis as a method of deriving theories. A priori knowledge or justification is independent of experience (observation). Austrian economists also dont use mathematical and statistical methods in the area of economics. This means for you that anything that happens in the real world cannot be proven to be anything other than coincidence when it happens to match what you expect.

    You do not prove a causal or any other modal relationship or seek to offer evidence of a link. I predict things all the time it does not mean my way of thinking is correct, unless a proven link can be made. Austrian economists reject mainsteam methods for finding such links and so no proof can be made.

  70. Black Flag says:

    Charles,

    if you had been reading anything about what I posted about the austrian school you would understand how completely retarded saying the austrian school can predict anything is. Austrian school cannot predict anything it does not use falsifiability by a particular observation or physical experiment.

    You are in error – again.
    Austrian school uses observation as its tool to evaluate its theories – and as such, offered not only explanations of past economic events, but predictions of certain future one.

    Austrian economists contend that testability in economics is virtually impossible since it relies on human actors who cannot be placed in a lab setting without altering their would-be actions.

    ]

    This is true.

    This simply states that experimentation is not possible.

    The austrian school uses a priori “non-empirical” analysis as a method of deriving theories.

    This is not wholly true.

    Mises writes that economics, the study of human choice under conditions of scarcity, can be treated as a specialization of praxeology, the study of all human action.

    Like other members of the Austrian School, von Mises rejected the standard scientific approach of relying upon empirical observation in the study of economics, and instead, favored the use of logical analysis.

    It is NOT a reject of empirical observation as a test – it is a rejection of empirical observation as means to organize a theory.

    Von Mises writes that the empirical methods used in the natural sciences cannot be applied to the social sciences because the principle of induction does not apply.

    In essence, he believed that a theory constructed to predict how humans will act (what ends they will seek) in a “complex” situation could not arise from studying how they acted in “simple” situations.

    A priori knowledge or justification is independent of experience (observation).

    You have your cause and effect misapplied.

    Austrians do not claim that one can create an economic theory based on a past observation, as described above, due to the inherent errors of using “simple” human decisions as a proxy for more complex human decisions.

    Austrians DO use observation of economic outcomes to validate their theories – because what use is a theory that cannot be used??

    In this matter, they have proven to be the most successful of all economic schools – hence, (to me at least) carry tremendous validity in their processes and understanding.

    Austrian economists also dont use mathematical and statistical methods in the area of economics.

    Generally true. Austrians do not claim that praxological outcomes can be so accurate that a “number” can be calculated.

    This means for you that anything that happens in the real world cannot be proven to be anything other than coincidence when it happens to match what you expect.

    Perhaps you can brush off the consistent and repeatable ability to predict certain specific future economic outcomes as a “coincidence” – like flipping 22 heads in a row.

    But, I’d rather suggest such a coin is ‘rigged’ and Austrian economic understanding works.

    You do not prove a causal or any other modal relationship or seek to offer evidence of a link. I predict things all the time it does not mean my way of thinking is correct, unless a proven link can be made. Austrian economists reject mainsteam methods for finding such links and so no proof can be made

    Ah, the witch hunt theory. If she floats she is a witch and burn her at the stake, or if she drowns she wasn’t a witch and goes to heaven.

    Austrians reject “mainstream” methods, and therefore must be wrong.

    No, Austrians reject mainstream methods because they are wrong.

  71. Black Flag says:

    Austrians reject mainstream methods because they are wrong.

    (They, being the mainstream methods…)

  72. But can these economical hero’s plant potatoes, wash dishes,care for children and older and look sexy to their wife who reflects about the interconnection between the household budget and humanity?

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: